Speaking of Science: International Men’s Health Week

Did you know that Australian males lose more healthy years of life from dying prematurely compared to women? Contributing to the ill health and premature death experienced among Australian males, the leading risk factors include smoking, being overweight or obese, poor diets and alcohol and/or drug use.

For our International Men’s Health Week Speaking of Science webinar, NHMRC 'checked in' with Research Committee Members, Professor Doug Hilton AO, Professor Adrian Barnett, Professor Josh Vogel and Professor Raymond Chan to discuss the health challenges faced by men and boys and their experiences from a health and medical research perspective.

Hosted by our CEO, Professor Steve Wesselingh, this insightful discussion tackled topics such as exercise, diet, alcohol, social media, health checks and mental health.

Interested to hear the live discussion with some of Australia’s leading health and medical researchers? Watch the International Men’s Health Week webinar below.

Recorded on Tuesday 11 June 2024 11:00 – 12:00 AEST.

Video transcript

Professor Steve Wesselingh 0:00 
Okay, I think we might start. Thank you all for coming along today either in the room here, or virtually. And today's Speaking of Science is about men's health. And but before we start, I'd like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land, the Ngunnawal people and the elders past and present, I acknowledge and respect their continuing culture and the contribution they make to the life of this region. I extend that respect to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people who might be in the room today or online, and acknowledge those joining us online who are located on other traditional lands across the country. Before we formally start, there will be an opportunity to ask questions of our panel members both in the room, but also online, so encourage you to put your questions on the chat. And also just remind people that we've had a number of these Speaking of Science webinars recently, and they're all available on the NHMRC website. And today's discussion will also be recorded and uploaded within the coming days. The June Speaking of Science webinar is to acknowledge International Men's Health Week, which is celebrating its 30th anniversary this year. It was first initiated by the United States Congress in 1994. And this week, aims to heighten awareness of male health issues on a global level, and promote promote the importance of supporting the health and wellbeing of men and boys in our communities. In Australia, there have been localised Mental Health Week events in Victoria and New South Wales from 2000 onwards, providing a platform for each June that shines an important light shines an important light on this issue. It focuses on three pillars of health, physical, mental, and emotional and draws our attention to the poor state of men's health, both nationally and globally. On a national scale, I thought I'd share a few stats reported on the health and wellbeing of Australian males. Some of these numbers may surprise you. Men are more than three times as likely as women to die from suicide. 12% of males sought professional help for their mental health in 21/22. Compared to 21% of females. Men lost more healthy years of life from dying prematurely at 54%, then from living with disease and injury at 46%. Men experience 70% more potential years of life loss compared to women. The leading risk factors contributing to the most ill health and the premature death among males are smoking, being overweight or obese, poor diets and alcohol and or drug use. The focus in International Men's Health Week for 2024 is on men's health checks. We will be personally discussing discussing the different ways we can keep men and boys healthy with our live panel here today. And you know, it's fabulous to have this group here. Professor Doug Hilton, Professor Adrian Barnett, Professor Josh Vogel, and Professor Raymond Chan. And Raymond is online. And thanks, Raymond. And welcome very much. And maybe I can get each of you to just introduce yourselves, and then maybe make a comment on what International Men's Health Week means to you. And I'll start with Doug.

Professor Doug Hilton  3:35  
Thanks, Steve. Yeah, I'm Doug Hilton. I've been privileged to be part of different NHMRC committees for many years, and I'm currently Chief Executive of CSIRO. I think for me, Men's Health Week is an opportunity to talk about issues that have been probably overlooked in my own life in terms of health and discuss things in 2024 that it would have been great to have discussed in 1984.

Professor Steve Wesselingh  4:07  
Adrian?

Professor Adrian Barnett  4:08  
Hello, yeah. Adrian Barnett, I'm a Statistician. Always been a numbers person. The usual joke I make on panels like this is I'm here to literally make up the numbers. To be honest, I think Men's Health Week, probably would have just passed me by which is kind of very man think of me to do that. These kinds of things do pass you by and I do ignore a lot of stuff and maybe don't seek health care proactively as I should do.

Professor Steve Wesselingh  4:36  
Thanks, Adrian. Josh?

Professor Joshua Vogel  4:38  
Morning all, yes. I'm Josh Vogel, I'm a perinatal epidemiologist, work at the Burnett Institute in Melbourne. Great to be here. And yeah, for me, I guess probably a timely reminder, some of the numbers you were quoting Steve, are bit scary, I think maybe reinforced that these kinds of health awareness works a great opportunity be reminded why it's important to to go and get checked out. I recently had a landmark birthday, shall we say. And now I'm in that age group where I need to go in there every year for for various checks.

Professor Steve Wesselingh  5:07  
So, great thanks and Raymond, online.

Professor Raymond Chan  5:11  
Hi everyone, Ray Chan, a clinician researcher, a cancer nursing background, regionally from culturally linguistically diverse background. Similar to other panellists, normally who just passed me by without me noticing. But it is a great opportunity for us to rethink about what we can do with our own health, as well as other men but importantly, given that it's International Men's Health Day, it is also quite important for us to think about what we can do to think about the cross cultural considerations as well for for men in Australia.

Professor Steve Wesselingh  5:52  
Thanks Raymond. Maybe, actually, this question interests me a bit because I think we can learn from each other. But what are the three things you do to keep your health in check? What do you what do you do to stay healthy Josh?

Professor Joshua Vogel 6:04
I don't know if I'm doing three things. I'm a I'm a terrible jogger. I'm a very keen reformer Pilates attendee. And yeah, I think with time, trying to be smarter about how I eat and drink, and yeah, definitely with age, I find that becomes increasingly important when you start growing in one direction start growing in the middle, and more diligent recently than previously.

Thanks very much. Adrian?

Professor Adrian Barnett  6:12  
I'm very lucky, I get to cycle to work every day. So I get to see greenery, I get to see wildlife, I don't get stuck in traffic jams. And I don't get stuck on a bus with somebody who's coughing their lungs up. So and it saves me time. I'm faster as well. So that improves my mental health no end.

Professor Steve Wesselingh  6:52  
That's one thing.

Professor Adrian Barnett  6:57  
Physical exercise and

mental exercise. And oh no don't spoil it for me now, I feel like that's solving all my issues, just, just cycling to work every day.

Just one thing to look after your health?

It's quite a long distance.

Professor Steve Wesselingh  7:13  
Okay, before we go to Doug, Raymond online.

Professor Raymond Chan  7:23  
I'm a walker. I love walking, having early walks by the beach close to where Steve lives, I believe. Right. I also pay a lot of attention to my sleep. Of late. I've watched the sleep documentary on SBS. And so I'm definitely putting a lot of efforts into monitoring it and trying to improve it as well.

Professor Steve Wesselingh  7:47  
Thanks. Doug?

Professor Doug Hilton  7:50  
Well, it probably a few things. Certainly exercise for me is being incredibly important, something that I neglected for a long time in my life and trying to do something every day. Not always possible. But that's the aspiration. Absolutely. Watching alcohol consumption, I think probably has always been an issue through my life. So being very aware of that. Not drinking alone. It's not a bad tip. If that needs to be said. And then and then probably lastly, being aware of mental health issues and seeking professional support for issues as they arise or just navigating life.

Professor Steve Wesselingh  8:32  
So just going to the mental health issue. What what are some tips about keeping yourself positive? Your job presumably is a little bit stressful? How do you cope with that? sorts of things that emerge on a day to day basis in terms of the things you worry about, get a bit stressed or down about, what how do you deal with that?

Professor Doug Hilton  8:55  
It's probably at a few levels. Something that I've practiced in the last few years that actually came out of cultural awareness training with some First Nations people. And that was they talked about the importance in their workplaces of sharing a little bit about who they were, rather than always bringing your professional face to work. And I think as you know, growing up in a kind of a Western household with a Protestant work ethic and you know, turning up at a big, big Medical Research Institute, there was always game face and so I found that ability to share some of who I am as a person with the people I spent a lot of my life with, without oversharing, really important. I think talking about the stresses and then having professional help. I found all of those things to be important things that just by doing them reduce uses the stress of the work and I, you know, I've kind of found the roles increasingly less stressful, rather than more stressful as I've become more senior, I think because of those ways of interacting.

Professor Steve Wesselingh  10:13  
And thanks for that. That's. Andrew, apart from riding a bike?

Professor Adrian Barnett  10:19  
There's actually a quote from Einstein that I really like, I'll try and get this right. And he said, once you realise that the universe is matter, that is something expanding into nothing, then wearing check with plaid is not a problem. People have already commented on what I'm wearing today. So I think what that what that quote always says to me is that, you know, we are really quite small, you're part of a much bigger thing, and not to put too much weight on your own shoulders. You can talk to other people. And it's normal to go and, to go and seek help, but it's normal. I think you'd have a remarkable life, if you went through your entire life without any mental stresses going through a year without any mental stresses would be incredible. So yeah, I mean, there was actually a quote there at the start about, it's clear that men are just not seeking help enough when they need to.

Professor Raymond Chan  11:17  
I think along the lines of my colleagues, I think, for for men to be vulnerable, and see vulnerability as a form of strength, being able to share with with people, other people about the fact that I don't have to be strong all the time and not a vulnerability. I think that's one thing. Another thing is that we spend so much time at work. We've spent so many hours of the week at work and what it did, actually a woman mentor who taught me this is the F she used every Friday as a fun work day. And since then I tried to really adopt it into my week, to have one day of the week, focusing on work activities that I enjoyed most, and that is helpful to keep my mental health sound at work.

Professor Steve Wesselingh  12:11  
Thanks. Thanks for that. Josh?

Professor Joshua Vogel  12:13  
Yeah, I think for me, you know, recognising that I am kind of bad at it has been really helpful. And then what are you going to do with that information. So there have been periods in a professional life where you think you're really doing it tough, and being able to talk to that issue with your loved ones with your family, but then seek help get, you know, speak to a mental health professional. And the times that I've done that over the last 20 years have all been extremely helpful in their own way, that have taught me skills that I use for myself to try and prevent the next one. Now, that's not to say that I'll ever get to a point where I can completely neglect it or forget about it. But you know, working in good preventative mental health becomes, you know, a daily activity. And that can be anywhere from knowing when to put the pen down, knowing when to go for a walk and take a break. Or maybe where the answer isn't, you know, having a few drinks, it's more trying to discharge, your concerns over a discussion with a friend or a colleague. So yeah, for me that that sort of slow process, I may not get there. But being proactive and trying to move in the right direction has been very helpful.

Professor Steve Wesselingh  13:21  
Great. So we are a medical research organisation. And everyone comes from medical research organisations. So what do you think, where's the gaps in in medical research, health and medical research in regards to men's health? What What should we be doing more of? What should we be funding? What should we be growing in terms of the research related to men's health?

Professor Joshua Vogel  13:46  
Those you quoted at the start Steve, make the point, there's probably many right answers to that maybe too many answers to that question. I think what is worrying me and scaring me at the moment is the amount of violence that's in the community. And how much of that is men doing violence to others, particularly others who are vulnerable or have less power than then. And there's plenty of good researchers and research being done on that much of it being funded by NHMRC and MRFF and others. We're clearly not where we want to be and where we need to be. And I hear that same concern from plenty of people in the community and plenty of men. And I do ask myself, Where where is the active role of men in changing the behaviour of men when it comes to violence in the community? That's purely a personal opinion. But clearly, what we're doing now is not working well enough. So there needs to be a lot more work done on that and research is big part of that solution, I think.

Professor Steve Wesselingh  14:44  
Great. Raymond, would you want to comment on that?

Professor Raymond Chan  14:45  
Yea sure, been thinking about the notion of not necessarily precision, precision care, and I've been just sort of reflecting how much time and efforts Red Cross would put into finding out the o negative blood type of people and just go after the making sure that it's easy for them to access parking and to come for their blood donation. I just think that we need to think about men. Not every man is the same, that there are some men who will require more caring, there are some more men, some men who will require different types of encouragement. And I think having thinking caring in a position way to tailor it to where people are, where they needed, in the form that they will most likely acceptable to them, I think is what we need to think about.

Professor Steve Wesselingh  15:37  
Thanks. Adrian?

Professor Adrian Barnett  15:39  
I want to mention some work that was led by Blesson Varghese, Adelaide, and this was on and this is due to the climate crisis. So they, we interviewed, manual workers indoors and outdoors. And there was an amazing attitude there that no matter how hot it gets, you don't complain. You don't say, Oh, I'm feeling a bit dizzy, I need a break, and another female workers there. But this attitude is particularly bad amongst men. And when you do see accidents increase on hot days and accidents on workplace, it's gonna be really nasty life changing things. So I think some research in that area to change attitudes. I mean, it's it's interesting that wearing fluoro, sort of 20 years ago on a building site used to be seen as something you didn't do, and you were a bit, wussy if you did that. And now it's everywhere. So I think we need that attitude change that if it's really hot. Maybe you don't have to go to work. Most contracts have, you know, if it's raining, we're not going to go, I think we need to get use of it on extreme heat days, we're not going to go to work. And also if you are feeling dizzy, and if you are and it is hot, you can take a break and go and get some water.

Professor Doug Hilton  16:42  
I think it's a systems issue. So you know, I think like, Josh, I don't think there's any one fix. And it's, it's a little bit like the challenges of closing the gap or the difference between life expectancy, the further out you go from any capital city and tertiary hospital. I think we need to think systematically about the issue. And then, you know, understanding interventions that can be made early on, and then through life for those of us who early interventions and okay to be of any benefit, rather than thinking about, you know, kind of single points of fixing.

Professor Steve Wesselingh  17:26  
And something Adrian alluded to, hang on to it Doug, I guess goes a bit to masculinity or toxic masculinity in the sense that, you know, you need to tough it out. I mean, I can remember footy training a long time ago where weren't allowed you know, Hayden Bunn was our coach, he didn't let us drink any water during footy training, kick the water bottles away and told us to, just tough it out. And now footballers are drinking water every 10 seconds. And but you know, there was a toxic masculinity component to that. I think it is part of sport, but it's also part of work and work culture. And and it's also goes to the violence that you were talking about. And I think domestic violence as well. Do you want to just comment on that?

Professor Doug Hilton  18:13  
I think you're thinking back, probably Steve, you and I are the only two people on the panel that can kind of think back to growing up in the 60s and 70s. I'm not sure it was just toxic masculinity. It was just toxic culture, in a lot of ways, right? Was toxic expectations on men, it was poor behaviour. It was completely gendered roles in the workplace. You know, women at CSIRO had to resign once they became married. But I'm not sure it was just toxic masculinity. It was just a culture of the time that was poor in so many ways that we now look back on. And, you know, I think we have we do have a huge problem with male violence. And I think what we need to remember and is that that impacts kids, and those kids are boys and girls, and those kids grow up to be men. And so I think we're all as a community impacted by that. Whatever the number 20 30% of men who, who hold on to a view of male dominance and violence that is just corrosive for the whole community, and it does disproportionately of course, impact women. And you know, we see that daily, weekly, with women killed by intimate partners, and ex partners. But those women have kids, and I think we just need to be able to understand the impact on the whole community and begin to address it through the sorts of things that we're talking about today.

Yeah, yeah.

Professor Adrian Barnett  19:57  
Yeah, and there is, you know a lot of toxicity has gone away, there is now with social media, there is some very strange things that boys are being exposed to, like horrible misogyny, and a lot of body image stuff as well, you know, which traditionally is was a problem just in girls, but my daughter's friends, some of them 10 years old telling me they want a six pack and things like this. And yeah, and so that's a real growing concern that they're being exposed to that kind of stuff. And also holding around the CCTV camera basically with them all the time videoing everything they do, and not being able to escape that, you know, we didn't have that kind of pressure when we were growing up. So I do worry about that.

Professor Steve Wesselingh  20:37  
Thanks. Raymond, do you want to comment on that?

Professor Raymond Chan  20:39  
Yeah, no, I agree with Adrian, I think as a parent, what I'm concerned about is the generational differences in terms of how we can begin to grasp how sport, gaming, social media, in today's context is influencing the thinking and the upbringing of boys. And as a parent, we have no idea how, how it is being experienced by younger people. And I think I think having more professional help in the area would be extremely helpful for parents for the upbringing of kids, I believe.

Professor Steve Wesselingh  21:20  
Thanks. Josh?

Professor Joshua Vogel  21:23  
Yeah, I guess, to a point that Doug raised about the kind of corrosive consequences of toxic masculinity of patriarchal systems, and the harm that does to other people in the community, particularly women, particularly children. But these systems are, they are corrosive for the individual as well. Right? Patriarchal systems, you know, they, they cause harm to people around them, but they keep those individual men isolated. And that just I think, in some ways, propagates mental health problems, you know, health issues that you introduced, Steve, as well, I just think, you know, there's there's as much to gain in terms of others in the community by addressing this health as there is for the individual men themselves. So where do you start with that? I think Raymond raises a good point that perhaps our generations are poorly equipped to help young people with the sorts of challenges they're facing. But that's where I think the research comes in, and the investment and try to find new innovative ways of supporting young men and young women, but young men in this strange new age we're in.

Professor Steve Wesselingh  22:24  
And thanks for that. Is there any questions in the room? Anushka do you have a question? Josh, give her a microphone.

Audience  22:35  
Thanks for putting me on the spot. On International Women's Day, we hear statistics about how women are more likely to be for example, incorrectly diagnosed with not having a heart attack when they are, and many other health statistics, which for me raises the importance of viewing everything through sex and gender lens. And I just wonder whether the panel might want to comment on on how important that is, particularly when it comes to research.

Professor Joshua Vogel  23:03  
I just spoke someone else can.

Professor Adrian Barnett  23:13  
I think the only one that speaks to my mind is there is, as well as seeking health behaviour there is some dangers of overdiagnosis in men, particularly around prostate cancer, which is also a very big killer of men. But there are also people who have unnecessary surgeries and things like that. So it's a very difficult message to get out there. Go and get help, but at the same time, think, carefully consider that help and your options.

Professor Steve Wesselingh  23:40  
That was going to be actually the next question that I was going to ask - how do we get men to actually go to the doctor or go to health care professionals earlier? I mean, I have a sense that older men do go, you know, once they start going, they keep going, as you said, they sort of start to get a bit more anxious about their health. But, you know, I've got male sons, eh male sons. I've got sons. I'm sure none of them have been to the doctor in, you know, early in life. How do we get people to sort of get into that? How do we get men and boys get into the system of of seeking health, talking to health professionals earlier in life rather than waiting till they're older? And those conditions are sort of already there? As Doug said, probably too late for some of us. Yeah.

Professor Adrian Barnett  24:32  
Yeah, I think you've got to be ready to be embarrassed. I had a very embarrassing one. Recently, I noticed this black mark on my skin and I googled it and it looks like the worst sort of thing. And I scrubbed it and I went to the skin check clinic and he took an alcohol rub and made it disappear. Simultaneous feelings of relief and embarrassment. Stick with that embarrassment. I went back, he mentioned it again, about a year later, after I went back. But then I went back a couple of months ago, and I did have a couple of things burnt off, actually. So that was a bit of a wake up call. So yeah, some of the screening procedures are embarrassing, they are not the sort of things you want to do. But I'd rather be alive than being non embarrassed and dead.

Professor Doug Hilton  25:27  
For a lot of my life, it's about finding the time to prioritise. And you know, trying to find a GP appointment on Saturday morning, when, you know, a lot of I go to a Men's Clinic in Melbourne, I've got a GP there. But a lot of men want that sort of four hour slot. So you know, you're pushing, pushing the appointments down the track, and then, you know, the busier you get, the more likely something will come up. So just prioritising. And I found that exceptionally difficult through those kinds of years in 30s and 40s, as you're trying to establish a career, you know, I found a, you know, once I had kids that a almost visceral pressure to provide, like, millions of years of evolution kicking in, in like this almost automatic way of 'Oh, my God, little kids opening their mouth for food like birds', right? It was like it was here, right. And so, you know, prioritising your own health at a time where you're trying to prioritise your profession in order to provide for your family, and then trying to provide time for the family, I just found incredibly difficult. And so, you know, looking back over the last five or 10 years where I've probably been better at that. I think partly, it's because, you know, if you, if you succeed in a career, then you start to take a deep breath. And your kids get old enough that they don't need you around all the time. So I'm not sure that there's been any sort of adjustment other than the fact that life has changed a bit. I wish I could go back to the kind of 20s 30s 40s and look after myself better and find the time but I'm not quite sure how to do it.

Professor Steve Wesselingh  27:23  
Thanks, Raymond, do you want to comment on that? And we do have a question. That's great.

Professor Raymond Chan  27:28  
So obviously, I think, going back to Doug's point around around prioritisation and understanding men's motivation. Yesterday, I was just talking to just someone who, who might ask why, why you would like to fix your sleep apnoea. And the motivation was that he wanted to have brighter days, he wanted to have better health for the kids. So I think many of us do know the importance of health seeking, but prioritising it is a different thing. So I think, really, really ensuring some of these behavioural, cognitive behavioural therapies, type of intervention does reach our community, into the real world setting is important. Another thing that here at Flinders that we do is that we do point of care testing at the stadium, with people who go and watch sports, I think, once again, not just always expecting men to be finding time to go to see a GP, but actually how we can bring care to them where they are. And I think they're probably quite a bit of an opportunities there as well.

Professor Steve Wesselingh  28:38  
Josh? Then we'll go the question.

Professor Joshua Vogel  28:39  
I was thinking a similar way, right, is that, we've probably reached the limit of what the current strategies that we're funding are going to achieve. We can spend more money and more and more money on strategies that maybe have maxed out, we're not going to get a return, or we can get creative, and try new ideas. And maybe sitting in busy GP clinics waiting for men to come to, to health services is not the way we're going to get, you know, get over that gap. Maybe it's the outreach, maybe it's clever marketing and clever community mobilisation strategies, or it's workplaces or whatever it might be. I mean, something that Doug said, really resonated with me is that a really compelling argument for myself and many men I know is that my health is important to other people. You know, my wife really wants me to be well, you know, well into our 80s. And that requires me to take action now. I find that for some reason, perversely more motivating than thinking about doing something for my own good. And I suspect people with children probably feel that, you know, tenfold. So those sorts of, you know, clever messages, kind of communication strategies that can actually get people moving, you know, to health services, you know, physically are probably where the research comes in, right? How do we find these new innovative ways of doing things that might get us the bang for buck that we, we can't get with current services?

Yeah, I really like that idea around the technology. And you know, wearables would be another way of people, you know, monitoring their heart rate, their blood pressure, I think, you know, potentially point of care cholesterol and those sorts of things. I think that they perhaps are the way forward where it's easy, quick, right, but identifies those factors.

Professor Doug Hilton  30:15  
Steve, could you, could you do a Canberra Airport, like cholesterol check GP clinic for us? I've been spending most of my time there, planes are almost always delayed. You're a doctor right.

Professor Steve Wesselingh  30:35  
We should do it. Question?

Audience  30:38  
Thanks, Steve. It's on, it's falling on the sort of point about continuity of care through the life course, I've got a partner and a son, they both frustrate the life out of me in terms of their own care about their health. And one of their favourite things to do, of course, is sort of sit on symptoms for too long, and then they're very busy. It's the prioritisation issue that Doug raised. And then jump into any GP, they can get an appointment at short notice to, there's no continuity care, no relationship there that allows a doctor to see them across the life course and no really changes that have been happening. So I'm interested in your comment about that, how we can help build that continuous relationship that will be able to detect things. But also I'm seeing there is a benefit coming up in the system level. So the healthcare digital record system that wherever you go for your blood test, you now can have a central point and those records and that information starts to build up over time. And I really want to encourage men to opt into that, or I think you have to actually opt out of it. But basically that now as a central repository of the man's medical history, I think it's going to make a big difference. I'm interested in your comments.

Professor Steve Wesselingh  32:01  
Yeah, great, great question. Great question. I mean, I guess it goes to the fact, and it goes to your point Josh. We know men don't go to GPS very well. We also have a bit of a crisis in primary care. So getting into see a GP is hard. Getting in to see a GP, on a regular basis is even harder to get the one that you have previously seen. So other other technologies that we should be thinking about online, AI, other things in terms of getting them to seek help and to have have some continuity in terms of their screening? Go to Adrian?

Professor Adrian Barnett  32:38  
Yeah, it's a great question. I do exactly that. So yeah. And as a numbers person I, I understand that data and knowledge are power. Yeah, I can't think now how we do it. I mean, it's, it's incredibly difficult just managing the data that we do have, but linking it all up and being more organised about it. I know, there are people who put, this is my wife, she proactively puts GP appointments in and then cancels them in advance, I would never ever think of doing. But that's a way of getting, not having to get in on a Saturday.

Professor Doug Hilton  33:09  
So I love opt out. Because for men, you know, actually getting anything done is difficult. So if you have to opt out, then you probably are not organised enough to do it. So you're in a system. So I think that's a great strategy. I think there's probably a lot of opportunities that I'm not even aware of. So, you know, one of the things that crossed my mind traveling a lot now was could I need a repeat for my cholesterol medication, I have to go and get a prescription. Like it did cross my mind. Is it possible to do that online? I've got no idea with my GP. So, there's, you know, and I suspect, I'm having a landmark birthday this week, there are probably a lot of 60-, 70- and 80-year-old men who just simply don't know what's available in the modern world to be able to get health care. I'm not sure how we inform them of that. So, I think awareness again, of opportunities, and the changing provision of health care would be a good thing.

Professor Raymond Chan  34:11  
It's a very interesting question raised. And I recall that at COVID when people were trying to use telehealth to see the GP. And I recall that I always thought that I had a GP simply because my family had a GP. And so, my wife and daughters always go and see the GP. But little did I know when I rung up, they said well, we're not your GP because you haven't seen us for the past two years. I was thinking well, that's simply because I haven't needed to see you and wanted to see you. So there might be some opportunities there for us to look at a system and how we can access in men, linking the family more with GPS rather than just the men, but it's a complex issue, I do agree.

Professor Joshua Vogel  35:09  
More touch points, I think I mean, I feel like to give you an analogy, everybody wants me to have a vaccine. My workplace is asking about my vaccination record, I go to the pharmacy, they'd love to sell me a vaccine, the GPS asking me about it, my loved ones, your family, are up to date on this and that vaccine? Where is the equivalent of that for other chronic disease health checking, you know, why am I not getting that about prostate health? Why am I not getting that about cardiovascular health, and it touches a bit on this issue Ray and I are pushing about, you know, seeing the kind of role of other types of entities and organisations in the communities, you know, visit schools or footy clubs, or surf clubs, or whatever it might be, that may also have a important part to play in this story, we don't conventionally think of them as being part of the continuity of health and medical information. But if these are places that men are and where they are receptive to health information, they're, they're engaging with a healthy behaviour, that's why they're there. Isn't that exactly the time to strike? You know, this historical mode of health services being where in hospitals and clinics and the patients are out there, and they come to us this is I just do not feel this is going to work for the next the next century, we need to kind of go to where the go to where the issues are and meet patients and people where they're at.

Professor Steve Wesselingh  36:22  
I can I can Target Call for Research, I can feel it coming.

Audience  36:25  
Hi, my question is, maybe a little bit along that line. I wonder what the panel might think about obesity in men in Australia, and particularly in relation to our culture of beer drinking. I've seen a lot of my husband's friends get very large over their 30s and 40s. And particularly those men that won't choose to seek medical help until they have a crisis, a heart attack, diabetes.

Professor Steve Wesselingh  36:56  
Great question. And actually, if I can just add a little bit to that question, because it was going to be one of my next questions, which was about mateship, and sort of two sides sides of mateship. What we've just heard, you know, going to the pub with your mates and probably drinking a little bit too much beer and being, you know, you're in a round, so you got to keep on going in the round. And if you don't, then, you know, commentary about you not being in the round, and so on, I think some of us might have experienced that. But also the positive sign of mateship, you know, what do you do? And I guess going to Gill's question, if you do notice one of your mates, you know, drinking too much, perhaps putting on too much weight, you know, what do you do?

Professor Joshua Vogel  37:39  
When I hear this issue come up, the thing that comes to my head is about hitting the zeros. I've been in a pub on a Sunday afternoon with a group of mates and we're and we're all drinking zero beers. And it's great. Because we're all together, we're all doing what we like doing in our 20s, you know, but we're drinking a lot more zero alcohol beer, right. And this is, I think, a fantastic example of how we can find clever ways to sort of change our health behaviours, but still preserve what what was so good about it, what was bringing men together in a social way, or dropping some parts of it that weren't so good. So I sort of feel like there are some of these types of opportunities where, you know, some healthy behaviour modification can come in, and the marketing around, you know, zero low alcohol beers, I think it's been fantastic. You know, in my university days, if you were drinking a low alcohol beer, you would be pilloried, you know, and actively not. And now, it's very, it's very normalised. And I think the data showing that, you know, by and large, you know, alcohol consumption is, is reducing in the Australian community. So I do think, you know, in some ways, we can kind of move with the times, so to speak, but, you know, I would say it's still very taboo to sort of, you know, get into this sort of discussion about your mates health, even in an era where we think we're probably a bit more open to talking about that.

Professor Steve Wesselingh  39:01  
You want to comment on that area.

Professor Raymond Chan  39:08  
Yeah, um, Steve is quite interesting, because I started reflecting as a health professional as a cancer care professional. I oftentimes, throughout my interventions of clinical time, have structured time to talk to men with cancer, to talk about alcohol, smoking, healthy behaviours. And I find myself interacting with my friends quite differently. And I find quite ill equipped. I don't feel that I can just go and tell my friends off, I don't want them to feel discouraged, for example. So I do wonder whether we can be equip friends and mates a lot better. Whether we can equip wives or not better because wives probably need a totally different set of skills to be talking their husbands around. Friends probably need a total different set of skills to be talking to mates around, But as a health professional, I find that I engage with people quite differently depending on the social role that I take, and I feel quite ill equipped.

Professor Adrian Barnett  40:13  
I've got a friend who confessed to me, he is in quite a few sporting teams, that he tells people he's allergic to alcohol, because that is an acceptable excuse. Which I found kind of shocking. And I think I'm growing, developing an allergy to it anyway. Because as you get older your hangovers just get really bad. But yeah, that was quite a wake up call to how ingrained it is. And I do like the fun side of it, to chat with your mates. And I still have, I have two friends in school I chat with every Sunday night, but it's normally breakfast time for one of us. So we can't drink. But that's yeah, that's been that's a very healthy for me. I told them, I'm gonna be honest. And I was brainstorming what I should talk about on this. So yeah. It is, there a great parts about that major thing and hopefully its turning around, but it doesn't have to be all alcohol based in the future?

Professor Steve Wesselingh  41:04  
What about talking to your mates about health?

Professor Adrian Barnett  41:07  
Definitely, although  actually, what we end up talking about at the moment, we're kind of in this, all of us are in this sandwich bit, you've got, we've got kids you've got to look after, but we've also got parents at a certain age where they're all getting old. So most of our health conversations at the moment about what we're going to do about our parents, as they are nearing the end of their lives, really. And that's a very difficult conversation to have, with, I've known all their parents my entire life. So it's tricky.

Professor Doug Hilton  41:39  
So as someone who probably went through the 30s, and 40s, kind of battling weight and high cholesterol and didn't do very much about it, I relied absolutely, on, my ex wife, who was much more vehement in the way she exercised and kept fit, especially after having kids. So I certainly benefited from her example. I think now sharing exercise, as previously, I might have shared a drink with people. So I found Strava to be really good. So you know, the fact that it you know, it sounds really superficial, but the fact that I have friends on Strava, similar age, or my kind of adult kids who will give me a little thumbs up or love heart. As if I exercise a couple of times a week kind of gets me through those weeks where I don't hit because of travel or indolence or whatever it is, I don't exercise every day, that keeps me connected to the exercise, keeps me connected to those people. And then when I see them in person, you know, we kind of talk about that. I absolutely think zero alcohol beer has transformed, the way a lot of men drink together. And now I'm more surprised when restaurants, there's a place I'm staying, when I'm in Canberra, they don't have zero alcohol beer on the menu. And that has become the surprising thing rather than seeing it on the menu. So I am optimistic. I look at my 29 and 27 year old boys and feel incredibly optimistic about men's health and their friends and the way they connect in ways that are infinitely more sophisticated than I did with with my peers growing up or through my professional life. So yeah, I think that changing norms, changing culture, changing acceptability of talking about issues and vulnerabilities I think gives me reason for great optimism.

Professor Steve Wesselingh  43:49  
So can I just go back to, just go, comment about, and I don't actually remember you being obese actually. But clearly, you're saying you were back then. Did your mates at work, your male friends at work, did they comment or say anything? Or encourage you or? I mean, there was a gap there wasn't it?

Professor Doug Hilton  44:14  
Yeah, I was probably 20 kilos overweight. So heading towards 90 kilos, were kind of 75 is my probably ideal weight. You know, I'm kind of 81 kilos now. So feeling a little bit conscious of trying to back off a little bit. I think, you know, I think back then it was almost the, you know, the reverse, that, you know, people avoided any discussion of, I can't remember having any discussion about relationship issues, mental health, drinking issues, you know, alcohol consumption, anything like that at work. There was a you know, there was a much greater normalisation of drinking as part of a work week. I don't see that now. But what I'm worried about is I don't see it because I'm the old person that nobody invites to have a drink. I'm loathe to make a generalisation about workplace culture. Because, you know, reflecting on the fact that the more senior you get, the less likely you're going to be invited to anything, nor should you go, so. I'm not quite sure if anything's changed, but within my social circle it has changed.

Professor Steve Wesselingh  45:27  
Thanks, thanks. So the people at CSIRO are not taking you out to drinks.

Professor Doug Hilton  45:34  
Not very often.

Audience  45:34  
Just while we're waiting. I know you said it facetiously, Steve, but I think it targeted call for research is a great idea. I love the closing the gap analogy that Doug used, because I think there really is a gap. Whether that's because there's different health services or access to health services, or as we've talked about, men are notoriously less likely to proactively engage. So I think that is an area we could look to target. I have a nine year old, heard on the panel, number of panel members have young children. One thing that's going to change going forward is the role that social media plays in men's health. Something that when I was growing up in the 80s, and I look older than that, there was no social media. And it was a very different, so how I'm, I'm, I'm grappling with how to deal with that with my children. But as they grow into their 20s, and 30s, potentially, it's a double edged sword, there is a great opportunity with social media, to be an avenue to improve mental health and the way they engage and interact and talk about things, sort of with their friends, and colleagues. But as we're seeing in youth and teenagers at the moment, actually, it's probably having a negative effect on mental health and other health aspects. So I'd like to hear from the panel in terms of what they think in terms of social media going forward, and how we might be able to use that in a positive way to try to get messages across, or allow people to connect so they can actually improve and will look after their health in a better way.

Professor Steve Wesselingh  47:33  
Really important question. I'm going to go to Ray first, to comment on that question.

Professor Raymond Chan  47:39  
Yeah, sure, thank you for the question, David. I equally as highlighted feel quite ill equipped, as a parent to really think through social media. And I really appreciated what Josh highlighted around the touch point. And I and I think about what, what appointments would I prioritise in my diary. It's my kid's concerts. It is my, it's whatever the school send send me and asked me to be there for my kids. So, I think that could potentially be one touchpoint base to schools, to try to influence kids, but to try to influence parents in their influence over kids. So, I think more reaching out, which outreach sort of opportunities tend to be helpful. From our perspective.

Professor Steve Wesselingh  48:29  
Thanks Raymond. Josh?

Professor Joshua Vogel  48:32  
I'm probably terrified, I think would describe well about the health impacts of social media. I think the other is that the world's changed, it's here to say, we need to work with it. How do we, how do we separate out the power of social media to create communities and help people maintain loose ties, which in the case of mental health, is something we particularly want to preserve and celebrate, from, you know, the toxic effects of uncontrolled unregulated algorithms and the damage you can do to people, particularly young people. And, you know, I think part of that has to be the regulation space, which I know is in the public discussion at the moment. But I think there is some sense that we're grappling with a sort of a power and force we don't understand. And for every great story you hear, I feel like you hear more worse, worse stories. So I'll probably tilt a bit sort of negatively about it at the moment as a strategy, but you know, the degree to which the research investment can help us to understand, you know, where and how these tools can be applied in a healthy way, you know, help to strengthen communities help to bring people together across, you know, different places to participate in, you know, and healthier behaviours. That potential seems, to some degree limitless right. So, I think that's where, you know, communities like health and medical researchers have got a really important, perhaps quite bold part to play.

Professor Steve Wesselingh  49:57  
Thanks for that. Perhaps we'll get you 2 to comment, but also comment on the toxic masculinity that we're seeing on social media where, you know, boys are given advice, you know, on bizarre aspects of masculinity.

Professor Adrian Barnett  50:12  
That does really worry me. There, you know, there are now famous

influences who have these horrible agendas, and I'm not even going to name

Audience  50:23  
My nine year old actually knows their names.

Professor Adrian Barnett  50:25  
We were doing a quiz the other day on YouTube of famous people and one of them came up, and that's horrible to have that person in that mix. It's very weird. So I do find that worrying, I find they can't turn it off, is worrying as well. Back in the 80s. I was on the front page of our local newspaper. I thought it was a good photo. But when I arrived at school on the Monday, everybody let me know that it wasn't. And if I go back to my hometown, even now I guarantee you somebody will mention it. But now it's constant, you can't turn it. If you've done something daft. You can't turn it off. It's there all the time, even at midnight, you can turn on your phone and see. That is really worrying that. How do you stop that. I want to say though I do see my daughter plays online, and I worry about it. But I do overhear lots of healthy interactions still online and lots of fun stuff where they're playing, they're all playing the same game together. They love the robot soccer game, which is quite funny. So, that, there is definitely some good aspects to it as well.

Professor Doug Hilton  51:34  
I sort of count myself lucky, my children didn't grow up as digital kind of natives. So they're 29 and 27 now. And I don't think have had that same experience of being immersed in social media to teen years. I heard being discussed on Radio National, I can't remember the source of a survey, I think was an Australian survey about different attitudes that men in their 20s 30s 40s 50s had towards women and quite a lot of questions. And the, what was interesting, and I'm going to round the numbers, were 80% of men had pretty healthy, generally healthy attitudes towards women, and the 20% that didn't, had those negative attitudes on almost every question. And so understanding how to shift that group, and reinforce what are positive attitudes for the rest of men and help those men support the or change the attitudes of the kind of 20% of men I thought was really interesting. I didn't think it would split that way, I thought there would be a lot more gray. But then also reflecting back again to growing up. I'm not sure it's changed much, the different roads to poor masculinity. There are different roads to poor masculinity, but the attitudes were there, I remember, you know, the guys in the footy club or the cricket club that had odious attitudes to women, and some of my peers were gravitating towards that and others weren't. So, you know, I don't think we should kind of romanticise the fact that, you know, things prior to social media, were were good. There have always been those roads, the only piece of advice I gave my kids growing up, and I realised that this is shameful, in a sense, that they were no topic, there was no discussions about sex education, they had went to a school that did that. The only bit of advice I gave them was, watch the person at the footy club, watch the man at the footy club, who changes when they drink, right, that you know, that person who became violent, who was going to king hit, who just had that edge. And those people were there growing up for me. I guess the challenge is, if everybody is exposed to them now, through social media.

Audience  54:13  
Just a follow up comment, while we're talking about it, thanks for your answers. Josh's point about you know, it's here to stay as we all know, we need to work with it. Maybe something going forward in a future Triennium for NHMRC to consider in terms of policy statements, guidelines, probably not the right term, but you know, sort of a position statement in terms of social media and you know, sort of health for both men and women. Sort of, given it is something that could be a source of good or evil, I guess for lack of a better term in terms of health and prevention.

Professor Doug Hilton  54:53  
Is it here to stay? Like it's been 20 years, right? So it's a new, societally a new technology, you know, and I think back to, I kind of think back to things like, you know, cigarette smoking, you know, using lead in petrol, there are a whole lot of things that we would assume 20, 40, 60, 80 years ago would have been here to stay, and we've, we've regulated our way out of those things. So, you know, I actually, I'm really, I'm kind of really interested in, in that question. You know, certainly the discussion at the moment is, it's not going to be here, you know, it might not be here to stay in the way that we have you embraced over the last 20 years, where anybody from any, at any age can basically set up a social media account. So I'm really interested in how you regulate around products that when used correctly are going to impact people's health. I think it's a really interesting area. Absolutely support another, we need to put more money into Target Calls of Research.

Professor Steve Wesselingh  56:03  
This is not a research committee meeting, by the way. Question?

Professor Doug Hilton  56:08  
Hi there, just expanding on what we were talking about earlier, as far as those kind of lifelong milestones and health checks for, for both genders. I think it'd be really useful as far as similarity with, you know, baby and childhood immunisation schedules. You know, when a baby's born, parents are given a, one of those blue books, which lists all of those key milestones they really need to touch in on from a health perspective. It'd be really good to have something like that for your entire life, like for some of those key milestones, as somebody in their mid 30s, I'm not even too sure what I should be, you know, getting checked in on, so something like that could be a really useful tool for the general population. But completely unrelated question. What do you think we could be doing better as far as the the loneliness pandemic that we've got, I think, as somebody with teenage kids who have just gone through the COVID pandemic, and a lot of that isolation, I'm seeing some some serious loneliness in in the in that generation. But it's something that seems pretty universal across and particularly guys, so I'm curious, your thoughts on that?

Professor Steve Wesselingh  57:29  
That's a great question. And I'm aware of time, so I'm just going to make this the last question. I'm just going to, what what advice would you give to a mate who, who's looking lonely and a bit lost and struggling?

Professor Joshua Vogel  57:42  
Yeah, the normalisation of the reaching out, right, trying to make those barriers as low as possible. And, you know, maybe historically, these things happen through other parts of the community, sporting clubs, or what have you. But how do we get to in a digital age make it as easy as possible to reach across that divide.

Professor Raymond Chan  58:03  
Steve, if I may just add something real, real quick at the end, which I don't feel has been touched on quite a lot is that every man is different. And I think we have talked about men with wives, but there are men without wives, there are men from, there are men who have sex with men, there are people who live in the rural remote area, we have seen increase suicide in in farmers, for example, veterans, for example. And we know that men are more likely to commit suicide than women. So I think that there are some men who require more help, and more support, and I just thought I use the final opportunity just to highlight that.

Professor Adrian Barnett  58:44  
I don't know the answer. I know it's a big problem. I know, things like Men's Sheds have worked really well, for some men, and then you also get like a new letter box or something like that, out of it as well. So you know, that's kind of handy. So yeah, more things like that.

Professor Doug Hilton  58:57  
I think those opportunities to build kind of direct face to face communities, and you know, not expecting those communities to be perfect, but better than better than isolation. I also love the idea of, you know, being able to share my medical milestone on Strava or something, you know, get get, do the poo test and get a whole lot of likes from your male friends. We could gamify it, gamify it, it could be a lot of fun.

Professor Steve Wesselingh  59:33  
Okay, so we're coming to the end, and yeah maybe an NHMRC blue book for someone's entire life, male or female. And I want to reiterate Ray's point that, you know, across the community, there are large groups. We tend sometimes to talk about sort of what we know, but we haven't talked at all about Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander men and there are obviously health issues there as well. But we haven't had an Aboriginal Torres Strait Islander on the panel and I think it would have been inappropriate discuss that in detail without representation. But there's lots of other groups that are suffering, and we need to take all of those into account. There's people in poverty, and as you said, lots of other groups. So we haven't covered everything. But I think we have had a terrific conversation. I think I've actually learnt a lot. And, and I think Research Committee will have to discuss a lot of TCRs, in a number of areas, but no, I think it's been terrific. I want to thank the panel for being prepared to be up here and online. Prepared to show yourselves a little bit, talk about your past a little bit, talk about some vulnerabilities. I think that's been terrific. Some great questions from the audience. And I hope everyone online has really enjoyed it. And as I said previously, this will be, this has been recorded and so will be available to look at later. So thank you, everyone, and looking forward to the next webinar. Thanks a lot.

End of transcript.